Question- Not really sure where to put this

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Iodo
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

Post by Iodo »

Hmmm... good point, I guess that raises the question of how long were those swords in the trolls hoard?
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Eofor
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

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caedmon wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:31 am Elrond had to read the runes on Orcrist and Glamdring, but the Great Goblin knew them on sight.
To be fair the blade were lost ere he was born but once he reads the runes he immediately knows their lineage.
'These are not troll-make. They are... very old swords of the High Elves of the West.... They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!'
As to the Goblin King, perhaps they retain some sort of cultural memory. It's interesting that Orcrist, the least famous of the two blades they can identify because they are holding it, Glamdring on the other hand they recognise in the midst and chaos and confusion of the escape. Perhaps the glowing Elvish swords are quite rare?
Iodo wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:12 am Hmmm... good point, I guess that raises the question of how long were those swords in the trolls hoard?
Quite long I would imagine, the original owner of Glamdring was Turgon of Gondolin who (though the various notes of the professor are a bit contradictory) was somewhere around 7 feet 10 inches tall. His personal sword would have been huge to Gandalf who by most accounts is around 5 feet 6 inches. There is the possibility though, that it was a single handed sword which could make it a longsword for Gandalf.
Orcrist is in the same category though we don't know it's original owner. Many have speculated Ecthelion of the fountain and I think it's a reasonable guess as few others among the Gondolindrim matched his feats in the fall of Gondolin.
We know his blade was a single handed sword as he drops his shield during the battle and it would seem possible that the swords of both Turgon and Ecthelion could have been looted at the same time and ended up in the same hoard.
It would also make the sword a reasonable size wielded two handed by the much shorter Thorin!
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

Post by Peter Remling »

Well, if elves had free will and then their corruptions had free will. Eru created life and Melkor just corrupted it. Intentionally or unintentionally leaving in free will. It can be construed that it is necessary for higher forms of life to have free will to survive.
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

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Eofor wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:49 am
Iodo wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:12 am Hmmm... good point, I guess that raises the question of how long were those swords in the trolls hoard?
Quite long I would imagine, the original owner of Glamdring was Turgon of Gondolin who (though the various notes of the professor are a bit contradictory) was somewhere around 7 feet 10 inches tall. His personal sword would have been huge to Gandalf who by most accounts is around 5 feet 6 inches. There is the possibility though, that it was a single handed sword which could make it a longsword for Gandalf.

For some reason I never looked back at this thread? Thx for the answer Eofor but I didn't mean "how long" in actual length (it was poorly worded, my bad), what I meant was how much time had the swords been in the troll hoard for? If the goblin king recognised them he had seen them before so that might be some kind of clue to how old he is?
But then, when I read The Hobbit I imagined that the swords had been there a very long time, however maybe not? Because the trolls couldn't have been there that long since Gandalf was surprised and troubled to discover them there, hmmmm.....
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Thalion of Bree
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

Post by Thalion of Bree »

Eru only knows how long Orcrist and Glamdring had been lost before Gandalf and Thorin picked them up out of that troll hoard, but I certainly don't think the trolls were just lugging their cache of treasure around with them everywhere they went (though come to think of it, that might explain the sacks...). My thought is this: Tolkien was a big fan of the "forgotten glory" trope*. It doesn't really help answer your question, Iodo, but there could be a wide gulf of time between Turgon's handling and keeping of Glamdring and the trolls finding it and saying "ooh shiny." Best guess, they were lost during the fall of Gondolin, traded hands for a long, looooong time, and eventually found their way into the troll hoard. Bert, Bill, and Tom probably didn't even know what they had.
But you are right; the Great Goblin did know. How is that, I wonder? Eofor's idea makes sense to me, that of the swords being a hated cultural bogeyman of sorts. You know the kind of thing: "stop whining or I'll turn you out of the hole, and a bright-eyed Elf will come get you with Biter and Beater!" "Sorry, mum; I'll behave**!" That, and the Great Goblin is probably more versed in Elven runes (know thy enemy!) than the rest of the goblins are, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that he saw the runes, knew his history, and said "oh heck, I'm holding Biter and Beater. I should probably go wash my hands now."

*Incidentally, no offense is meant by the word "trope" here; tropes are incredibly useful writing tools, and Tolkien uses them expertly throughout his writings.
**I almost wrote "I'll be good," but that seems a bit much to expect of a goblin child, don't you think?
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Eofor
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

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Iodo wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:40 am Thx for the answer Eofor but I didn't mean "how long" in actual length (it was poorly worded, my bad)
Hardly, the English language is simply ridiculous at times.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Iodo
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Re: Question- Not really sure where to put this

Post by Iodo »

Thalion of Bree thanks for your answer :P and I do like your thought that perhaps those artifacts were a kind of "folk tale" among goblins, the kind of story that would be passed down the generations for so long that no one knows for sure if it were ever true, like the troll under the bridge or king Arthur's sword, I doubt it's how Tolkien imagined it but it does make a lot of sense

Eofor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:55 am Hardly, the English language is simply ridiculous at times.
LOL, very true :lol:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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