Fire steel

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theguywitheyebrows
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Re: Fire steel

Post by theguywitheyebrows »

Tom_Ranger wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:43 am
theguywitheyebrows wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:59 pm the pommel of a knife is ususlly not hardened enough to throw sparks easily, and a knife built like they would have been doing at the time you're talking about would have a softer metal as the pommel like brass as the construction style...
I hadn't thought of it like that. My blades are all zombie tools 5160 Spring Steel including the Pommel with aluminum side plates. I haven't tried striking a fire with it but will this weekend.
its the heat treating that allows the stone to peel a flake of the steel off, the flake of steel oxidizes and heat is generated. the chances that your pommel has been hardened is very low, as that is the portion of tool that would need give in case it was struck by anything. if that was hardened enough to throw sparks, it'd likely have already cracked. i use the spine or cheek of the blade of 1095 or 5160 @58RC or above to throw sparks, but it always textures the surface and not very pleasantly. i have caught sparks off of several steel tools, but never off anything other than the blade itself. hope you get there!! anything that can be used to make fire is worth practice for sure.
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Iodo
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Re: Fire steel

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theguywitheyebrows wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 pm its the heat treating that allows the stone to peel a flake of the steel off, the flake of steel oxidizes and heat is generated. the chances that your pommel has been hardened is very low, as that is the portion of tool that would need give in case it was struck by anything. if that was hardened enough to throw sparks, it'd likely have already cracked
hmmm, (I'm no expert because I've never owned any) but I believe that the zombie tools stuff is a manganese spring steel that is both flexible and hard, there is a good chance that the whole blade is hardened including the pommel because spring steels are not brittle, however for flecs of the steel to come off as sparks I think it does need to be brittle so even though it is hard it may still not work? We'll have to wait for his results as I have never tried striking sparks from spring steel
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Re: Fire steel

Post by theguywitheyebrows »

,
Iodo wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:03 am
theguywitheyebrows wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 pm its the heat treating that allows the stone to peel a flake of the steel off, the flake of steel oxidizes and heat is generated. the chances that your pommel has been hardened is very low, as that is the portion of tool that would need give in case it was struck by anything. if that was hardened enough to throw sparks, it'd likely have already cracked
hmmm, (I'm no expert because I've never owned any) but I believe that the zombie tools stuff is a manganese spring steel that is both flexible and hard, there is a good chance that the whole blade is hardened including the pommel because spring steels are not brittle, however for flecs of the steel to come off as sparks I think it does need to be brittle so even though it is hard it may still not work? We'll have to wait for his results as I have never tried striking sparks from spring steel
spring steel will throw sparks, but the deciding factor will be the hardness. brittleness is brought down at a lower temperature soak in an oven in a process called tempering, it gives hard brittle steel some relaxing so it can flex instead of snapping; quenching from high heat is what gives the steel the high hardness. when 5160 is hardened and then tempered down to 58 HRC (sweet spot IMO) it will throw sparks from a flint/chert/jasper/quartz rock. components on knives/axes/swords that are not the blade are rarely hardened at all because it would cause them to break during heavy use. 5160 accents are almost definitely not hardened and then tempered, not brass copper aluminum spring or high carbon steel. metal is highly resilient to everything, those components would have zero benefit from being hardened. a person who plans to go out into the wilderness would without a doubt have more than one method to start fire. a high harndess firesteel would be the most common, had by nearly everyone, a convex glass lens would be the next item to carry as solar ignition is FAR AND AWAY easier than friction fire but the skill to create a solar lens is lightyears ahead of what it takes to build a firesteel. blades for cutting, stones for honing, firesteel for fires. the energy it takes to quench and then temper something is the largest cost of making a high quality knife, it would cost FAR too much to HT and temper each component; the entire blade was likely HT and tempered, if there is steel exposed below the handle, it is likely as hard as the tip since its FAR easier to temper the whole blade than the draw tempering method out of the forge. companies who make production runs of knives don't skimp on the HT/tempering, but they wouldn't waste the process on the accents. whether or not there are vanadium, chromium, maganese, etc in the metal won't make any kind of difference without the HT and tempering, and the different make-ups of steels when hardened and tempered to the same HRC will perform much the same. the different steels (1095 versus 5160 versus 52100) have different qualities like wear or edge retention or ease of maintenance.

a dedicated firesteel is a better carry than a knife you're unsure of. i throw sparks into charcloth for fire off of my kukuri no problem, 1095 high carbon tempered to 58HRC will do that; firesteel is far easier to use. even a brittle firesteel that has broken will still throw sparks. i found a french one for $10 on amazon that is the right shape if lasercut instead of forged, and it will outperform my kukuri in the firemaking department.

i prefer 5160 as a budget steel because i refuse to pay for 3V which is the best out there; my 5160 11" spearhead will penetrate an aluminum engine block, i cannot imagine the same tool in 3V penetrating more engine blocks and what more could i expect the tool to do? plus, it throws sparks, so if my spear was all i had in a pinch i would be able to affect survival. i believe all carried tools should have the ability to throw a spark, but i'll always have a firesteel on me as well. i have a HC pendant that i wear that can be used as a firesteel.
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Re: Fire steel

Post by theguywitheyebrows »

also, steels with many of those 'additives' like chromium and vanadium and such bring the steel further away from 'high carbon' and closer to 'stainless' and that removes the ablity to generate the spark in the first place. the spark is a flake of steel oxidizing very fast, generating heat in the process; without enough carbon the flake wont burn.
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Tom_Ranger
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Re: Fire steel

Post by Tom_Ranger »

I did actually try it, and no luck at all. One of the blades (Reaver Cleaver) has a lot of raw metal on the back, but even then no luck.
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Re: Fire steel

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You did the experiment though, and that's great!
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Re: Fire steel

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Elleth wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:41 am You did the experiment though, and that's great!
A day learning something is never wasted. :mrgreen:
thats the ticket!! hada try and see, of course. hence the search for one forged from this forum. would be a fitting addition to the kit!!
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Re: Fire steel

Post by Iodo »

Tom_Ranger wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:59 am I did actually try it, and no luck at all. One of the blades (Reaver Cleaver) has a lot of raw metal on the back, but even then no luck.
interesting, the Reaver Cleaver looks to be the same piece of steel (full tang) all the way through so the pomel should be hardened the same as the blade, so I almost expected it to work, so maybe it is just how it is tempered that stops it from working?

I tried striking sparks on a slice of leaf spring from the factory where I work, just as it came out the scrap bin, I never did anything to it and that worked reasonably well (not as well as a proper fire steel though), but that proves spring steel anyway

did you try striking on the back of the blade? if not I fully appreciate that you wouldn't want to damage it so no worries, I'm just curious
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Re: Fire steel

Post by theguywitheyebrows »

a playlist where a bushninja strikes fire from steel with chert several times, often or mostly from the back of a modern heat treated and tempered blade. a personal buddy and an amazing resource for many many skills and practices:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40l ... P0tK3C6Nt4
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Re: Fire steel

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a forge grampa (highly respected) demonstrates forging a fire steel:

https://youtu.be/_kbe4QFqDFc

the techniques nwprimate uses for his modern blades is only a little different than the technique for a firesteel'n'flint, watching Grampa finish the steel will illustrate the difference between the old forge methods and the scientifically accurate salt bath kilns and digitally controlled ovens used for modern blades.
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Re: Fire steel

Post by theguywitheyebrows »

draw tempering is the method used by a blacksmith to bring down the brittleness of the steel in a thin tool used for work. this guy is solid, not a great orator, but a good smith and explains this fairly concisely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGwU0ojMcGw

this is how a blacksmith of olde would have ensured the sword he sold didn't shatter upon deflecting the first blow, and you can see how since the science has be refined down to minute detail, those dudes that sold good swords back in the day were BAD AF at knowing how to treat steel.
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Tom_Ranger
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Re: Fire steel

Post by Tom_Ranger »

Iodo wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:00 am
interesting, the Reaver Cleaver looks to be the same piece of steel (full tang) all the way through so the pomel should be hardened the same as the blade, so I almost expected it to work, so maybe it is just how it is tempered that stops it from working?

I tried striking sparks on a slice of leaf spring from the factory where I work, just as it came out the scrap bin, I never did anything to it and that worked reasonably well (not as well as a proper fire steel though), but that proves spring steel anyway

did you try striking on the back of the blade? if not I fully appreciate that you wouldn't want to damage it so no worries, I'm just curious
Have you looked at the zombie tools? They are meant to be damaged, it adds to their character. But yes I did try it on other parts of the blade and had the same results. As somebody else pointed out it's spring steel and the hardness impacts how effective it is at such things. I have 5 of their blades and tried them all.

Not to get too far off topic but you can see them test it in the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERHXqtvpOI&t=189s
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Re: Fire steel

Post by Eric C »

theguywitheyebrows wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:43 am if there are firesteels to be had, i'll take one! the viking style would be neat but the C style would as well. whatever is available.
I haven't made a fire steel in quite a while. Also, the ones in the pic failed in field testing. I think it has to do with the flat face. Perhaps I should look at doing a few better designed fire steels. If you are interested, shoot me a PM and we'll talk.
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