Numenorean design motifs

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Cimrandir
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

So I come for advice. I've come to the design portion of the pouch I'm creating and I need some feedback on the doodles I've drawn.

I plan to do this in cord-work which is simply a thin leather pressed over a leather cord to create a raised image. See below for an example. As I understand it, it was common enough method of decoration for sword scabbards in Migration period Europe.

So the shape of the flap should be fairly recognizable as the Sutton Hoo purse lid. I've re-read this whole thread numerous times as I doodled. I like what I've come up with as it incorporates both Tolkien's art and our own attempts at Third Age Arnorian art (thanks to Caedmon for posting that flower.)

So my main two questions are -

1.) Too Númenórean? I'm trying to stay solidly Third Age so I worry that it's too Second Age.
2.) Think it's too busy? Decoration is mostly a personal preference and should vary wildly between individuals but I wonder if as a simple Ranger pouch it should be a little less busy.

What do you folks think? I know Caedmon, Elleth, and Udwin have done a lot of work on creating Third Age Arnorian art so I'd love to know what y'all think. But of course, I'm happy to have feedback from anyone.

(The blank spot coming out of the slit is the strap coming through the flap. I am not a great artist.)

Thanks.
Potential Pouch Design Elements.jpg
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Vendel pouch.jpg
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Had a sudden thought while walking the dog. Here's a simpler version that I think I like more. Thoughts?
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Eofor
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Eofor »

I shall leave it to others far more versed in Numenorean ways to answer most of your questions but for my opinion I think both options work well. As to the level of embellishment that is going to come down to your personal preference of how fine your gear is intended to be.
While these designs were traditionally done using raised cordwork you could also consider carving directly into the wooden former of the purse lid and create a recessed rather than a raised design (or both)
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Thanks Eofor. I have zero idea if this will work because my plan is to do this whole thing in leather. The main body and lower flap in a 4-5 oz veg-tan, then the cord, and then a 2 oz veg-tan over just the flap. I've done a small test with some scraps which went okay but we'll see if it works on the full scale.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Elleth »

I do like the simpler version!

Regarding 3rd Age derivatives of the Numenorean motifs... oof. I think we've made some decent first guesses in the space, but I don't think any of us have really nailed it yet.

I think between documented Numenorean stuff, documented Sindarin stuff, and a best-guess historical analogue for the tribes of native Eriador edain, one could plausibly "run the clock forward," and more or less mimic the "filtering" of Roman motifs through the medieval era to arrive at something for Arnor. Then maybe even use the early American experience as a model for degrading / simplifying patterns in a rustic environment to evolve a pretty book-accurate Third Age Dunedain aesthetic.

It's a fascinating project and I've love to give a whirl.. but "Leaf by Niggle." If I ever get the chance it will be years at least.
Here's hoping for someone with a faithful eye to give it a crack! :mrgreen:
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Eofor »

Cimrandir wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am Thanks Eofor. I have zero idea if this will work because my plan is to do this whole thing in leather. The main body and lower flap in a 4-5 oz veg-tan, then the cord, and then a 2 oz veg-tan over just the flap. I've done a small test with some scraps which went okay but we'll see if it works on the full scale.
You definately want a former in the flap to retain its shape. We're not sure of what they used in the Sutton Hoo purse (possibly whalebone) but the continental examples used a thin piece of wood.
Of course it can't be too heavy or it distorts the shape of the purse.

The other option if you want to have it keep its shape being all leather is to edge it in some sort of metal. This was also a very common technique.

I can find some examples in the morning for you.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Dangit. I was hoping a double line of stitching + carving a small groove to hold the cord would be enough to keep it shaped properly.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Elleth »

How is that done, anyhow? Like a regular embroidery stitch on the bottom layer through the leather? Do you have to cover the back?
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Yavion »

Elleth wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:59 pm How is that done, anyhow? Like a regular embroidery stitch on the bottom layer through the leather? Do you have to cover the back?
The back of the pouch flap would likely be another thin layer of leather. You can skive it quite thin if needs be. I kind of answered this in "Crafts and Skills" but to answer your specific question: Just cord and glue. You could carve a light channel along the surface if needed, but glue will hold it in place if you let it set up nicely.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by caedmon »

I like both. I prefer the latter for a couple reasons.


1. the simpler design is more elegant.

2. *We have very little evidence that Numenorean art used joined spirals. (Two or more spirals that come together).
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We have evidence of branching spirals (spiral vine patterns)
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and concentric spiral (nautilus shells)
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* This is nitpicky and full caveats apply here. We don’t know what 3rd age Dunedain art looked like. There was a time when Celtic art didn’t have knotwork. So I fully understand that I am saying something equivalent to “based on Halstadt and LaTene evidence, that piece of 9th c Irish art has incongruous elements”
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Thanks caedmon. I agree with the first iteration being far too overly-designed. I think it just got away from me.

My thought was to get away from the standard Tree (too Gondorian) and Star (already well represented). I agree that there’s a couple thousand years between these designs and the War of the Ring it’s a little hard to advance those designs properly. Your explanations of Númenórean artistic elements is really helpful. I really like Elleth’s border from a few pages back but with the technique I was planning I didn’t think it would be a good idea to go that complex. I don’t know about it now, of course.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the most artistic fellow out there so Elleth’s idea of
Elleth wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:53 am …one could plausibly "run the clock forward," and more or less mimic the "filtering" of Roman motifs through the medieval era to arrive at something for Arnor. Then maybe even use the early American experience as a model for degrading / simplifying patterns in a rustic environment to evolve a pretty book-accurate Third Age Dunedain aesthetic.


is way beyond my level of competence. It’s why I like this forum so much. Got lots of folk much smarter than I am and much more eloquent explaining the concepts we strive to achieve.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Hmmm, not to harp on Cedarlore again as I know he’s been mentioned before in this thread but he posted this old sketch and realized spear on Instagram for Tolkien Reading Day that I had never seen before. Some of his stuff can be hit or miss but the more I look at this one, the more it grows on me. I don’t know about how well it fits the criteria Elleth laid out above but to my eye I can definitely see some influence of Tolkien’s Númenórean artwork but perhaps with that thousand year degrading. Might do a little more doodling inspired by this. What say you?

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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Elleth »

I adore Cedarlore's work, and I love LOVE the art of that spear.

I confess it never struck me as particularly Dunedain, but we all have our own mental images.
... and there is something in that arc at the tippy-tip of the design on the spearhead that looks familiar.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Cimrandir »

Right? I think it’s that arc and the floral motif that really struck me as 3rd Age Númenórean.
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Re: Numenorean design motifs

Post by Greg »

Elleth wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:24 am I adore Cedarlore's work, and I love LOVE the art of that spear.

I confess it never struck me as particularly Dunedain, but we all have our own mental images.
... and there is something in that arc at the tippy-tip of the design on the spearhead that looks familiar.
I've never felt that it looked Dunedain either...but it fits in really well with the current-day photo editing tendencies of fantasy photographers and artists.

I always felt they fit better when they were pursuing Dwarven art and culture.
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