Khazad Culture?

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Manveruon
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Manveruon »

ForgeCorvus wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:22 pm One thing to remember about any kind of knifeonastick is leverage, most fighting spears seem to be from shoulder high to just longer then you can reach up (5 to 8 feet on an average human male) so a nine foot half pike is about as long as you want to go..... This is for fighting in loose formation, especially if you have a hewing type spear. Long pikes are only really effective on mass and once the other guys are within your measure (the danger zone of the weapon) you're pretty much toast, this is why you'd have billmen to protect the pikeblock.

Now your average Dwarf isn't as tall as a man (between Four and Five feet), so his spear would be shorter to be in proportion. This is a biomechanical limit not a strength issue........ However, stick a choppy end on the same length pole and swing it around with your insanely wide shoulders and low centre of mass and you have something to bring all your favorate foes down to your level
Yeah, good points here! Kinda’ where my head is at with Dwarven pole-arms. I feel like they would really appreciate the advantages of things like halberds.
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Eofor
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Eofor »

Peter Remling wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:02 am Why were the spears of King Bladorthin abandoned? Simply put, they weren't abandoned, they were stored.
I always read it as they could not be delivered as Smaug descended on the mountain. I re-read it today and suppose it could also be that Bladorthin died before he could take ownership and thus they were abandoned.
Elleth wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:16 pm Related, I could imagine they got so used to fighting goblins in cramped little warrens off the main halls that longer arms mostly fell out of favor.
... or maybe the axes were so culturally iconic - in a literary sense - that anything else wasn't worth mentioning?
I had similar thoughts - Durin the deathless used an axe, Dain wielded his famous red axe and we have the battle cry of Gimli which the Professor tells us in Appendix F that the Dwarves have used 'on many a field since the world was young'

Baruk Khazâd! - "Axes of the Dwarves!"

Interestingly though, if the Dwarves do not make use of spears then they are one of the few cultures not to have done so, either throughout history or Middle Earth. Unusual for such a warlike race.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Jack
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Jack »

Speaking of Dain's red axe, I'd like to know how that was interpreted by everyone else when first reading about it. An axe rusted red? Metaphorically red/ perpetually covered in the blood of Dain's enemies? A red wood handle? Mythical unspecified red metal? Or simply an axe painted red? What was the first image that came to mind for everyone? It's something I was thinking about while staining the handle to my shepherds axe yesterday.
Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
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Peter Remling
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Peter Remling »

Jack wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:02 am Speaking of Dain's red axe, I'd like to know how that was interpreted by everyone else when first reading about it. An axe rusted red? Metaphorically red/ perpetually covered in the blood of Dain's enemies? A red wood handle? Mythical unspecified red metal? Or simply an axe painted red? What was the first image that came to mind for everyone? It's something I was thinking about while staining the handle to my shepherds axe yesterday.
The blood of his enemies is how I interpreted it.
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Udwin »

Peter Remling wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:00 pm
Jack wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:02 amSpeaking of Dain's red axe, I'd like to know how that was interpreted by everyone else when first reading about it. An axe rusted red? Metaphorically red/ perpetually covered in the blood of Dain's enemies? A red wood handle? Mythical unspecified red metal? Or simply an axe painted red?
The blood of his enemies is how I interpreted it.
But if Orcs are the primary foes, then the blood of his enemies would make it a black axe? I suppose any blood would make it rust, I expect Dwarves take better care of their arms than that.
Assuming it's not a copper axe, I always pictured it the head as being painted or enameled with red. Nothing too fancy.
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Cimrandir »

Jack wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:02 am Speaking of Dain's red axe, I'd like to know how that was interpreted by everyone else when first reading about it. An axe rusted red? Metaphorically red/ perpetually covered in the blood of Dain's enemies? A red wood handle? Mythical unspecified red metal? Or simply an axe painted red? What was the first image that came to mind for everyone? It's something I was thinking about while staining the handle to my shepherds axe yesterday.
I've always taken it as metaphorically red. ‘Nature, Red in Tooth and Claw’ and all that.
ForgeCorvus wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:22 pm One thing to remember about any kind of knifeonastick is leverage, most fighting spears seem to be from shoulder high to just longer then you can reach up (5 to 8 feet on an average human male) so a nine foot half pike is about as long as you want to go..... This is for fighting in loose formation, especially if you have a hewing type spear. Long pikes are only really effective on mass and once the other guys are within your measure (the danger zone of the weapon) you're pretty much toast, this is why you'd have billmen to protect the pikeblock.

Now your average Dwarf isn't as tall as a man (between Four and Five feet), so his spear would be shorter to be in proportion. This is a biomechanical limit not a strength issue........ However, stick a choppy end on the same length pole and swing it around with your insanely wide shoulders and low centre of mass and you have something to bring all your favorate foes down to your level
Interesting. My imagination always led me to think a spear would be an excellent weapon for cramped quarters deep below the earth. Perhaps a closed formation similar to some of the Roman legions or Saxon shield-walls, standing shoulder to shoulder across the full span of the tunnel blocking any sort of flanking maneuver, bristling with spears and then using shorter swords or axes for the close-up dirty work would do wonders in repelling a Goblin attack.
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Jack
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by Jack »

Cimrandir that was my interpretation as well
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Re: Khazad Culture?

Post by ForgeCorvus »

OK, I'm now seeing things like Shieldwalls, Phalanxes and Testudo being used in the more open areas (such as the non-canon The Gallery of Kings. ) and a smaller battering ram type manoeuvre (like the police and prison officers use for controlling rioting offenders) to sweep corridors clear.

More thought needed
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