Middle Earth Ranger Forum

I'm considering using ventile as an alternative to canvas or oilcloth to make a lightweight tarp and possibly cloak. Just wondering as to people's views on the authenticity of using this material.

Pros - 100% natural, no modern chemicals or artificial fabrics / membranes

Cons - would it have been possible to produce such a tight weave in Middle Earth? Authenticity of using (high quality) cotton?

Thanks

Ohtarvarno wrote:I'm considering using ventile as an alternative to canvas or oilcloth to make a lightweight tarp and possibly cloak. Just wondering as to people's views on the authenticity of using this material.

Pros - 100% natural, no modern chemicals or artificial fabrics / membranes

Cons - would it have been possible to produce such a tight weave in Middle Earth? Authenticity of using (high quality) cotton?

Thanks

Interesting proposal, I always beveled the fabric to be a myth and that the pictures seen of water beading on the surface to be caused by a treatment such as nikwax, after a bit of research maybe that's not the case. I'd be interested to know if it really does work - some manufacturers boast a water-head as high as 900

What I found in my research:
Ventile is woven from highly refined staple fiber (longer than normal) of cotton to allow the fine close weave to be tight enough for rain not to be able to get through (or that's the theory), it was developed in the 1930's.

Historically the technology didn't exist to make anything like it. In middle earth I suppose it's possible that something similar could have been made by the elves, who have advanced ropes and fabrics, however something like that would likely only be available to the very privileged, and justifying modern tech by passing it off as elvish is getting onto dangerous ground

My first thought is great idea, it would be lighter than oil-cloth, but the fine weave is likely to give a very solid color which could detract from the look of your kit, it's a tricky one, I'll be interested to hear the opinions of others

Hrm - well, it does say ventille is made from cotton, and the Professor explicitly says in one of the letters there is no cotton in Middle-earth: or at least not in Eriador around where the Shire is. (I assume in the far south it may exist, but that's only inference from historical analogues, not a textually supported assertion.)

Which isn't to say a particularly tight weave might not be managed by one of the peoples of MIddle-earth.

That said, I think one is always better off looking at how historical peoples of the analogue period solved a particular problem, rather than trying to back-date a modern solution by attributing it to non-human manufacture. Generally, one can find pretty good solutions in period. (I'm personally trying to source some loden to experiment with)

Elleth wrote:Hrm - well, it does say ventille is made from cotton, and the Professor explicitly says in one of the letters there is no cotton in Middle-earth: or at least not in Eriador around where the Shire is. (I assume in the far south it may exist, but that's only inference from historical analogues, not a textually supported assertion.)

Yep, I forgot about that


I just ordered some samples out of interest, when the post finally gets here (It's been a bit unreliable lately) I'll let you know what I think

I've used ventile to make a smock and it is pretty waterproof, especially if used in a double layer. It has the obvious advantage that it is a lot lighter and more breathable than oilcloth and canvas.

I think my main stumbling point is that if I try to be true to the spirit of MERF, cotton, by Tolkien's own admission, was not present in Middle Earth. Although canvas and oilcloth are often made of cotton these days they have viable historical alternatives. Having said all that it is very hard to eliminate cotton, or other non Middle Earth materials, completely.

As for the tight weave I was trying to convince myself that it is not that different from other fabric manufacturing techniques and could have been possible. However, I didn't want to fall into the trap of saying "Elves could have made it"!

To sum up, it may not be a perfect Middle Earth approved fabric but I think it is more acceptable than Gore Tex or plastic alternatives.

For what it's worth, I just got home and found some loden samples from a german seller waiting for me!

Specifically, I'd gotten three swatches - "gebirgsloden," "strichloden" and "leichtloden" - loosely "mountain loden," "brush loden," and "light loden" respectively.

Running this page:
https://www.mehler-tuchfabrik.de/das-un ... n-lexikon/

through Google Translate (and a bit of finessing) yields the following:

Gebirgsloden
mountain Loden
It has a rustic character and is made of coarser wool, which comes from the Alpine region. It is often used to make coats and tight jackets.

Strichloden (auch Mantelloden, Strichtuch)\Brush Loden (also Mantelloden, Strichtuch)
Tightly whipped loden. Characteristic are the fibers laid parallel in one direction. Due to its tile-like superimposed wool fibers, a special, water-repellent structure is created. In addition, camouflage is usually water-repellent impregnated and thus suitable as a raincoat.

leichtloden = "light loden"

ANYHOW: the "strichloden" and "leichtloden" have a similar hand to the broadcloths we use, and the "gebirgsloden" is about halfway between broadcloth and a scratchy old army blanket that's been well worn in. All are a lighter weight than I think I'd want to use for a cloak, but would make wonderful tunics. The "leichtloden" actually doesn't feel *that* differently in the hand from some of the nicer modern outdoor jackets I've handled, though I'm sure it's not *as* water resistant.

Still, it might be worth checking out.

(search the terms on ebay.de to turn up some for sale)

Thanks for the info

Iodo wrote: I just ordered some samples out of interest, when the post finally gets here (It's been a bit unreliable lately) I'll let you know what I think

I must have jinxed it by saying that, it actually did get lost in the post and they had to send it out again

Honestly I did think it was a myth, turns out it's not, and I'm impressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNPEaHl7zM

It kept going like that for about two minutes before it started to soak in, it's effectiveness is level with waterproofing spray, I imagine that it would keep the wind out pretty well to

So I think it's a good material but I wouldn't use it for ranger kit, or at least not clothing, it would make an amazing shelter tarp (if you forget it's expensive). The main reason for this is looks, to the untrained eye it looks exactly the same as normal cotton (the cheap stuff shirts are made from), creases easily and is light with no stretch so wouldn't hang nicely. It would be hard to make a garment and avoid the "rushed cos-play made from cut up old clothes" look, not to be harsh or anything The weave is fine but the block color and even-ness is what gives it away instantly as a modern fabric

So not for clothes, to expensive for a shelter tarp but all isn't lost, a cloak or hood lined with it would be amazing in a mountain blizzard