Middle Earth Ranger Forum

Seeing as I'm drawn so strongly to the short, wide and hairy characters in the books, I'm going to take the plunge and start to create a Persona.

I don't currently have access to the Appendices (or any of the books.... Something I need to remedy soon) so I don't know if naming conventions are explained, but what little I can remember seems to be along the lines of a patronym prefix (Thorin son of Thrain, son of Thror) and a filial suffix ( Fili and Kili for example, Thorin's brother was Frerin)

So, how wrong am I?

"Balin son of Fundin" on his tomb in Moria, too.
Considering the sample size we have (small, and all Longbeards), "x, son of y, son of z" is a pretty safe bet. Keep in mind that we only get to see the dwarves' 'outer names', and those of the Longbeards are drawn from Scandinavian sources because they operate in areas populated by Northmen. I don't know if Thorin and crew would've taken different (more 'Celtic') outer names when they were living in Dunland, for example.
The good news is you don't have to worry about coming up with an 'inner name' since those were secret and would only be used when among other dwarves! ; )
It's always exciting to see a new persona in the beginning phases, looking forward to seeing where you go with this!

Udwin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:51 pm Considering the sample size we have (small, and all Longbeards), "x, son of y, son of z" is a pretty safe bet.

There are a few others. Off the top of my head Azaghâl king of the Broadbeams is one and Telchar of Nogrod is another though both those names are in the dwarvish tongue.

That may be an opportunity for a new persona to explore, one of the other six houses of the Khazâd.

The names for many of Tolkeins dwarves were taken from the Völuspá. I have a copy at home but in the meantime this looks like a decent online version.

https://frozenotterblog.wordpress.com/2 ... of-dwarfs/

Eofor wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:30 pm There are a few others. Off the top of my head Azaghâl king of the Broadbeams is one and Telchar of Nogrod is another though both those names are in the dwarvish tongue.

D'oh, of course! My brain just naturally defaults to late Third Age since that's where we have the most information, especially for building a first persona. A non-Longbeard impression Would be very interesting to see, though it'd have to be mostly extrapolated.

Udwin wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:39 pm

Eofor wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:30 pm There are a few others. Off the top of my head Azaghâl king of the Broadbeams is one and Telchar of Nogrod is another though both those names are in the dwarvish tongue.

D'oh, of course! My brain just naturally defaults to late Third Age since that's where we have the most information, especially for building a first persona. A non-Longbeard impression Would be very interesting to see, though it'd have to be mostly extrapolated.

Thats pretty much my thoughts, and I'm sure that better minds then mine would find it difficult to create much from what little is available.

I think the best option for me would be to have a non-Longbeard ancestor for a 3rd Age Khazad

ForgeCorvus wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:13 pm but what little I can remember seems to be along the lines of a patronym prefix (Thorin son of Thrain, son of Thror) and a filial suffix ( Fili and Kili for example, Thorin's brother was Frerin)

So, how wrong am I?

After having had a dwarven persona for more than 5 years I'm a little embarrassed that I can't help

Udwin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:51 pm "Balin son of Fundin" on his tomb in Moria, too.
Considering the sample size we have (small, and all Longbeards), "x, son of y, son of z" is a pretty safe bet. Keep in mind that we only get to see the dwarves' 'outer names', and those of the Longbeards are drawn from Scandinavian sources because they operate in areas populated by Northmen. I don't know if Thorin and crew would've taken different (more 'Celtic') outer names when they were living in Dunland, for example.
The good news is you don't have to worry about coming up with an 'inner name' since those were secret and would only be used when among other dwarves! ; )

Good information, thanks Udwin When I came up with the (outer) name Iodo Ionite, this was my logic:

While "x, son of y" is indeed a safe bet, "x, Daughter of y" is a lot of runes to carve into leather, but Thorin acquired the surname "oakenshield", so it wasn't entirely unknown for a dwarven outer name to be a double name instead of "x, son of y", both Iodo and Ionite are nonsense terms that I made up (but I can't take full credit, iodo is the chemical nomenclature prefix for iodine, it was my chemistry teacher who said "it would make a good name for a hobbit", and I decided to use it for a dwarf), Ionite (a metal alloy unique to the Iron Hills) is Iodo's family's business, so I figured that although it would be very little heard of in the rest of Middle earth, it would probably be the most notable thing for Iodo to use in a name that could potentially have people thinking "ahhh... I know who that is now"

None of this is canon to Middle earth, but I have a wild imagination and am not ashamed to quickly fill in gaps in my (small) knowledge of law with anything that I think feels right

I would however be interested to try to create an inner name for Iodo, but honestly without making up a whole load of law myself, I would have no clue where to start, thankfully it isn't needed


(apologies for the late reply)

Iodo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:55 pm While "x, son of y" is indeed a safe bet, "x, Daughter of y" is a lot of runes to carve into leather,

I wonder if given the Scandinavian source of most of Tolkien's dwarf names that the 'son of' may not be a form of the Scandinavian naming conventions - Gimli son of Gloin = Gimli Gloinsson.

If this was the case then the equivalent female version of address should be along the lines of Dis Thrainsdottir which is much easier to carve into leather. Perhaps this is part of the secret language of the Dwarves?

Eofor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:53 am I wonder if given the Scandinavian source of most of Tolkien's dwarf names that the 'son of' may not be a form of the Scandinavian naming conventions - Gimli son of Gloin = Gimli Gloinsson.

If this was the case then the equivalent female version of address should be along the lines of Dis Thrainsdottir which is much easier to carve into leather. Perhaps this is part of the secret language of the Dwarves?

interesting, I hadn't ever thought about that, thanks

Eofor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:53 am

Iodo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:55 pm While "x, son of y" is indeed a safe bet, "x, Daughter of y" is a lot of runes to carve into leather,

I wonder if given the Scandinavian source of most of Tolkien's dwarf names that the 'son of' may not be a form of the Scandinavian naming conventions - Gimli son of Gloin = Gimli Gloinsson.

If this was the case then the equivalent female version of address should be along the lines of Dis Thrainsdottir which is much easier to carve into leather. Perhaps this is part of the secret language of the Dwarves?

Oh, I like that. I like that very much.

Iodo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:55 pm While "x, son of y" is indeed a safe bet, "x, Daughter of y" is a lot of runes to carve into leather,

In the modern day it might simply be best and easiest to establish your own signant stamp to put next to your name. Something unique to you and your family.

Tom_Ranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:24 am In the modern day it might simply be best and easiest to establish your own signant stamp to put next to your name. Something unique to you and your family.

I guess that the ionite family bu8isness would probably have something along those lines, however (after having abandoned responsibility with the family business in favour of the search for adventure and gold) I can't decide if she would use it or not?

Iodo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:43 am

Tom_Ranger wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:24 am In the modern day it might simply be best and easiest to establish your own signant stamp to put next to your name. Something unique to you and your family.

I guess that the ionite family bu8isness would probably have something along those lines, however (after having abandoned responsibility with the family business in favour of the search for adventure and gold) I can't decide if she would use it or not?

It tells everyone who your people are....... If you come from such a long line of thatchers that your family is now called Thatcher, you don't call yourself something else because you can't stand heights and earn a living making pots.

Besides, plenty of time to gain an ick-name. I'm sure Nain didn't call his son Dain "Ironfoot"

Me again.

I know that Barron has an older sister (its part of his backstory) and I even decided to name her Gudron, the part I'm up in the air about is weather to she would use her patronym or an Ick-name.

Shes a skilled cutler and married...... But I am at a loss for a good Ick

ForgeCorvus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 7:20 pm Shes a skilled cutler and married...... But I am at a loss for a good Ick

Australia is nickname ground zero, I've literally worked alongside people for over a year and didn't know their real names.

Looking at Dwarven names there are only a handful that I can see, Ironfoot and Oakenshield being the ones that spring to mind. We know Oakenshield is because of Thorins use of a branch as an impromptu shield, Ironfoot is likely to be a comment on Dain's ability to march long distances (some say it's because the Iron Hill Dwarves wear Iron shod boots but if so then it wouldn't really be unusal enough to invite a nickname)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread many of Tolkeins Dwarves take names from the Scandinavian sagas so perhaps a look there may give a clue as to what qualities a feminine nickname may be bestowed for. Beauty? Skill with hands or speech? If you can't find any then it's likely that it wasn't a thing as many of the menfolk in the sagas have nicknames.

EDIT - I just wanted to add that she may not have a formal nick name, but there's no reason a brother wouldn't have one for his beloved sister.

Eofor wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:30 am
Australia is nickname ground zero, I've literally worked alongside people for over a year and didn't know their real names.

Dad was stationed up in "The wet end" for a few years back in the 50's, he told me about it

As I mentioned earlier in the thread many of Tolkeins Dwarves take names from the Scandinavian sagas so perhaps a look there may give a clue as to what qualities a feminine nickname may be bestowed for. Beauty? Skill with hands or speech? If you can't find any then it's likely that it wasn't a thing as many of the menfolk in the sagas have nicknames.

I've always thought because Dwarves have a single outer name and don't tend to have family names, people use Icks as a way of meaning this particular Dwarf without having to recite their lineage.
In the same way I know several people named Sue and I'm more likely to say in conversation "Dancing Sue" or "Sewing Sue"
then I am to say "Sue Jones" or even "John's Sue"

EDIT - I just wanted to add that she may not have a formal nick name, but there's no reason a brother wouldn't have one for his beloved sister.

Yes, you're right. Siblings do have a tendency to award each other icks. But I don't think that you could say one of your peers that you're "Knife-tongue's"* Brother or that your sister is "Leia Saggy-bottom"..... Not if you want to live anyway


*Thinking about it,Knife-Tongue would make a good one for someone who is outspoken to the point of rudeness or catty