Thinking about the birrus...

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Iodo
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Iodo »

I've been told on a lot of occasions by people at medieval reenactment events etc... that unhemmed is the "correct" way of making a wool cloak, because it sheds water better, but for me personally it depends on the fabric, if it can fray I will hem it, and if not why bother? but that's just me
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Eofor »

Iodo wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:57 am I've been told on a lot of occasions by people at medieval reenactment events etc... that unhemmed is the "correct" way of making a wool cloak, because it sheds water better
I suspect they have only got it half right there Iodo. What I think they are talking about is a properly woven cloak with the end threads are tied off into tassels which will wick water. It can work if you double your cloak over and have the second end of tassels just below your shoulders but honestly, if you're that wet you need 50 drip points then it's pointless.

Image

With the amount of labour hours going into making a cloak it's highly unlikely that they would have just left it to fray and unravel.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Elleth »

I've also heard of unhemmed edges from some very very strict New England 18th c. reenactors associated with the local museums/historic sites. Given how persnickety they are with everything else they do, I assume they have solid evidence. That was in context of tightly woven and I think well-fulled broadcloth though, so I don't know how well that translates to this piece.

Here's the corner: to the right of the picture is the side seam, to the left the bottom. I looked for some kind of tacking seam to stop a ravel and couldn't find one. I think both edges are just raw. The wool is nappy enough that unless it gets thrown in a washing machine I don't think it will be a big problem. And probably given the cost/time invested in it, no hem is better than a tacky machine hem. Hand-hemming a wool cloak is simple, but takes foreeeeever. All that said... I would have hemmed it (and might in the future)

birrus-edge.jpg
birrus-edge.jpg (188.05 KiB) Viewed 4803 times
It's been hot hot hot and little rain of late, so I've not had a chance to test the lanolin addition.

Anyhow, at least so far I'm not super-impressed with this thing, but it's not bad and couldn't be much finer for the cost, especially given craftsmen with a UK cost of living. If someone were looking in today's market, I'd say just get a couple yards of middling grade tweed and stitch up your own.

For what it's worth, I've found that "Rustic Wool Moire thread" works fantastically when stitching woolens. You do have to deal with more thread breakage than say a modern doubled poly-core cotton of course, but the results are so much nicer.
Last edited by Elleth on Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Iodo
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Iodo »

Eofor wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:25 pm I suspect they have only got it half right there Iodo. What I think they are talking about is a properly woven cloak with the end threads are tied off into tassels which will wick water
that does seem to make more sense
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Eofor »

Elleth wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:49 pm I've also heard of unhemmed edges from some very very strict New England 18th c. reenactors associated with the local museums/historic sites. Given how persnickety they are with everything else they do, I assume they have solid evidence. That was in context of tightly woven and I think well-fulled broadcloth though, so I don't know how well that translates to this piece.
Huh..... well that goes against all my reasoning. Has to be some difference in the cloth/weave/treatment.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Elleth »

I know, right? This is one of those "well I wouldn't do it that way, and it makes no sense... but people who've looked into it more that I say it's so" things.

It could be they're wrong. It could also be they're basing their thoughts on an unfinished example. I know I've worn things at the finished-enough-but-not-truly-finished-finished stage - I can easily imagine a harried farmwife in the backwoods of New England in 1750 doing the same.

So I dunno. I'll see if I can track down someone in that group and see what their source is.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Elleth »

Walp, we had a flash rainstorm so I put on the birrus and went outside and stood in the rain for fifteen minutes or so. Not a super-long test, but all I could spare on a workday. It wasn't raining super-super hard, but the gutters were gushing and the dog was soaked, so I think it was a decent enough test.

Notes -

1. The hood size is just about perfect, assuming you're not wearing a helmet or anything - it can't be pulled down over your eyes at least. And it didn't catch the wind.
2. The bottom hem was mostly long enough, but being only around elbow width my lower arms got soaked, and the wind wanted to whip up under the sides.
3. The closed "poncho" front - which is miserable on a hot day - was a godsend in the rain. It didn't want to keep blowing open and my front stayed dry.
4. I didn't notice any difference on the side I sprayed down with lanolin and the side I left as is. My shoulders got a bit damp, and it's definitely heavier from taking up water - but I'm comfortable enough from midthigh up. Below - as one would expect - I'm soaked.

So pretty much as expected. Decent enough extra outer layer, not my first choice for inclement weather.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

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Iodo wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:57 am I've been told on a lot of occasions by people at medieval reenactment events etc... that unhemmed is the "correct" way of making a wool cloak, because it sheds water better, but for me personally it depends on the fabric, if it can fray I will hem it, and if not why bother? but that's just me
Me too, but the way I see it, a few hundred years from now people will be talking about the right way to wear a hoodie, and we all knw there are multiple ways.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Iodo »

Tom_Ranger wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:56 pm Me too, but the way I see it, a few hundred years from now people will be talking about the right way to wear a hoodie, and we all knw there are multiple ways.
good point, we don't think about it because it is normal, so really no way is wrong as such
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by caedmon »

Elleth wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:49 pm Hand-hemming a wool cloak is simple, but takes foreeeeever. All that said... I would have hemmed it (and might in the future)

What's your poison on hemming?

Fold Over, Blanket stitch, wool tape, something else?
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Elleth
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Elleth »

It depends on the material and application. I've done most of those - I still haven't done a tablet-woven hem, which is on the "someday maybe but is scares me" list. :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWz-wD7Ql8g

For a wool like this at my current skill level, I'd do a single fold over, like the ruana hem here -
Image

The technique I've evolved so far with this stuff is to fold it over once (with the raw edge exposed on back side), and stab-stich it into place as I go. Then I do a second pass with a whip stitch to clean up the raw edge and prevent any ravelling. Over time it sort of self-fulls into a pretty smooth edge - it looks cleaner than a blanket-stitch edge but isn't as bulky as a double-folded hem like I had been doing on broadcloth.

Here's a comparison of the single-fold method (wool tweed fabric, wool thread - left) and double-fold (wool broadcloth fabric, linen thread - right)
compared-edges.jpg
compared-edges.jpg (168.35 KiB) Viewed 4727 times
I've not tried the single-fold/wool-thread method on broadcloth, but I doubt it would work as well as with the tweed.

Someone more expert than me could probably sew and hem the garment in a looser state, then full it to be slick and tight as broadcloth and get the best of both worlds. But I've never tried such a thing, so I don't know.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Manveruon »

Fascinating stuff here! Tons of great experimentation going on! I really enjoy what you’ve been doing with it!

I will chime in on the subject of hemming though just to say that, although I couldn’t cite any sources, I have been told my many a Medieval reenactor and read on many a reenactment website that an awful lot of garments made from dense wool were simply cut and not hemmed at the time, since the fulling of the wool material would keep raveling to a minimum, or even eliminate it altogether. Apparently one of the most common examples of this was on intricate dragging, which was rarely, if ever, hemmed, due to all of the delicate ins and outs involved. This allowed it to hang naturally without the bulk of a hem, and also saved the hours and hours and hours it would have taken to actually hand-hem such a garment.

So yeah, plenty of precedence for woolen garments being worn un-hemmed, as far as I am aware (especially outer garments).
Last edited by Manveruon on Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by caedmon »

Manveruon wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:36 am So yeah, plenty of precedence for woolen garments being worn un-hemmed, as far as I am aware (especially outer garments).
Yes, this really only works with well fulled cloth (like a Melton or a Hudson Bay Blanket). This probably wouldn't work for the Birrus' broacloth, or even the MER old standby, a standard issue army blanket.

All of my dagged hoods have eventually had to have decorative embroidery on the edges to allay fraying.
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Iodo »

Food for thought...


So this is the bottom edge of a wool coat for a Halloween costume that I made last year, I wanted it to look ragged but like it had frayed naturally so I just cut a slightly wonky line and decided to wear it and let it fray. It's only made from wool tweed, it's quite dense but it's not fulled or boiled

I'm not exaggerating when I say I have used it as an every-day garment for nearly a year, I've worn it round town, on hikes, round the house, in the workshop, I even wore on a caving trip and to slide around on the drive way while changing the break-disks on my brothers car. I expected the edge to look like a rag, but you can still see my scissor marks clearly, I could probably wear this until the wool wore into holes before it would fray enough to affect the functionality of the coat


Image


It's only been washed once so maybe it's our modern habit of washing clothing every few days even when it doesn't smell that causes fraying?
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Re: Thinking about the birrus...

Post by Eofor »

Iodo wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:51 pm
It's only been washed once so maybe it's our modern habit of washing clothing every few days even when it doesn't smell that causes fraying?
One of my pet hates with regards to reenactment gear.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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