Question- Not really sure where to put this

[Peter Remling]

I'm far from the Tolkien Scholar so just wondering. According to Tolkien, orcs breed in the normal fashion and there are few females to males. Are orc females the equivalent of brood mares? What is their gestation period? How to they fit into orc society? Do the children mature a lot quicker than humans so they can be incorporated into hunting parties earlier than the same aged human? The same questions would also apply Saruman's Uruks.

I know, kinda odd questions but I am interested in just how long it would take to rebuild an army.

[Elleth]

... it's my understanding the Professor was never quite certain what to do with the orcs on such questions. Though if we take as granted the idea that orcs are derived ultimately from tormented elves, then we might assume a similar pregnancy of ~1 year, and time to majority of ~50 yrs. That's from a quick google though - if there's a canonical answer, I don't recall seeing it.

But that said, given that we hear of Gandalf and the others starting to get concerned around the time of the Hobbit in TA 2941, and most of the fighting of LotR is TA 3021, we have about eighty years from "the Wise think there might be a problem brewing" to "OMG their armies are everywhere!" - which seems about the same order of magnitude. It wasn't a decade, and it wasn't an age.

Regarding treatment of orc women, well... their menfolk are treated as disposable cogs in a giant backbiting machine who exist only to serve, so I don't expect the women have it any better.

[Manveruon]

Well that’s a somewhat unsettling question to ponder!

…And come to think of it, Elleth’s suggestion that gestation times may coincide with that of the Elves themselves, does that mean the orcs are functionally immortal as well? I had never considered that.

I realize Tolkien’s thoughts on orcs in general shifted and contradicted themselves a lot over time - and for good philosophical reasons too (particularly the idea of any entire race of at least nominally sentient creatures being, at their core, just plain evil, which is… sticky, to say the least) - but it definitely makes you wonder.

[Iodo]

Hmmm... I seem to recall a huge thread over on the Barrow Downs forum discussing this exact same thing. The conclusion they eventually came to was that Tolkien never quite decided, but that regardless of how it happened/how many female orcs there were etc... to fit in with the law and timeline, orc reproduction had to be quick otherwise Saroman's army could never have gotten as big as it did so fast

I can't remember where I read it, but someone wrote a quote something along the lines of:

If orcs come from elves originally then we don't know the life span of the average orc should they happen to not die of getting stabbed by someone, in theory orcs could be immortal (but live such a dangerous life that no one ever noticed). Consider this; How fast would the numbers grow if orcs in Mordor breed like rabbits but no rabbit ever dies? The creator of orcs wanted the ultimate race of "evil minions" to use as cannon fodder, so we have to assume that because fast breeding would be a requirement, that's how orcs were made

[Eofor]

does that mean the orcs are functionally immortal as well? I had never considered that.

It makes sense, I can't recall any old orcs.

That leads me down the path of possibly the only glimmer of Orcish genealogy that I can think of - Bolg, son of Azog the Defiler.

Azog dies in TA 2799 at the Battle of Azanulbizar.
Bolg dies in TA 2941 at the Battle of Five Armies.

Even if he was born in that year then Bolg was 142 at the time of his death which means Orcs live at the very least long lives. Note that by that stage he is already a great leader of his kind. This could suggest that 142 is a venerable age for Orcs as he was at the peak of his power, or it could also be an indicator that Orcs pay no merit to age but choose leaders based on other characteristics.

EDIT - I just had the thought that the time frame there - 142 years marks the gap between the War between Orcs and Dwarves and the Battle of Five Armies. We know that in the Dwarven wars Mount Gundabad was destroyed but by the Battle of the Five Armies it is once again the Orcish capital and the Goblins are once again in the Misty Mountains. Makes sense that your maturation time would be somewhere <142 years and probably closer to the 50 Elleth postulated.

[Elleth]

…And come to think of it, Elleth’s suggestion that gestation times may coincide with that of the Elves themselves, does that mean the orcs are functionally immortal as well? I had never considered that.

It's been an on-again off-again topic of debate for years. My inclination is (as Iodo's source mentions) - probably, but their life is so brutal and dangerous one wouldn't tend to notice.

Which is rather an even worse torment. If the elves grow weary of the world, surrounded by ethereal beauty - how much worse would it be to live in the horror of Mordor forever... unless you're lucky enough to get shanked.

No wonder they're always in a bad mood.

[Eofor]

how much worse would it be to live in the horror of Mordor forever... unless you're lucky enough to get shanked.

The frog in the well knows nothing of the sea, I think they are quite happy in the murder and the filth.

This does however put me in mind of the 'retirement plan' that Gorbag discusses with Shagrat

They would,’ grunted Gorbag. ‘We’ll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d’you say? – if we get a chance, you and me’ll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there’s good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses. ‘Ah!’ said Shagrat. ‘Like old times.’

That's an interesting line in that it suggests that perhaps Shagrat, Gorbag or both remember a time before Sauron and the Nazgul returned to take up residence in Barad Dur.

[Elleth]

The frog in the well knows nothing of the sea, I think they are quite happy in the murder and the filth.

Fair point, and that dialog's a good reminder.

[Manveruon]

Wow, not sure how I apparently missed this debate all these years, but it’s kind of blowing my mind

[Eofor]

Honestly the depth of this question has me pulling books from everywhere as I just wasn't happy with any of the ideas or theories put forward anywhere.

I've just put down Volume 10 of The History of Middle Earth and while no closer to an answer there is a footnote from the Professor in The Annals of Aman set against the quote that forms the argument Orcs are twisted elves

Alter this, Orcs are not Elvish

So while possessed of a longer span of lives than men it seems unlikely that the end vision of Orcish origin was an Elvish one. After all this reading I have arrived at a conclusion I am happy with but sadly the matter was never fully resolved.

There is a small essay on page 409 of Morgoth's Ring which is well worth a read on the matter. If anyone is interested but doesn't have a copy I can try and take photos of the relevant pages.

[Peter Remling]

Alter this, Orcs are not Elvish

So while possessed of a longer span of lives than men it seems unlikely that the end vision of Orcish origin was an Elvish one. After all this reading I have arrived at a conclusion I am happy with but sadly the matter was never fully resolved.

There is a small essay on page 409 of Morgoth's Ring which is well worth a read on the matter. If anyone is interested but doesn't have a copy I can try and take photos of the relevant pages.
[/quote]

Please do!

[Eofor]

[Eofor]

Sorry for the sheer size of the images, I wanted to make them as legible as possible off the photograph.

I don't usually share pages of copyright work and I normally just type the quote but that's a lot! Hopefully it's obscure enough that no one takes offence.

[Peter Remling]

Interesting read, Thanks

[caedmon]

Elrond had to read the runes on Orcrist and Glamdring, but the Great Goblin knew them on sight.

Just saying.