Lemme AXE you a question

Hard Kit is all other accoutrements that are not clothing, weapons or armour. This includes pots and tents, and flint & steel, and other things like that.

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Yavion
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Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

So! You've decided to take an chopping implement with you into the wild. With that said!

My internal debate: Axe or tomahawk?
The advantage of the axe is that you can have a nice, contoured handle that fits your preference and needs. The disadvantage being that if that handle breaks in the field you will be hard pressed with light kit to replace it. Not saying it can't be done, but...
The advantage of the tomahawk is basically the opposite: The shaft is pretty straight forward... literally. But if your handle breaks then you can carve a new one with a belt knife and some free time.

Because of this, I lead toward tomahawks. I'd love to hear everyone else's opinion though.
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Eofor
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Eofor »

So is this a full size axe vs hatchet kind of question? Or you're asking specificly about a tomahawk?
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Yavion
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

Eofor wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:48 am So is this a full size axe vs hatchet kind of question? Or you're asking specifically about a tomahawk?
It's tomahawk VS axe. I've come across axe sized tomahawks, but I'd say this could be packable hatchet VS similar sized tomahawk as well.
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Eofor
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Eofor »

Understood! Axe/hatchet all the way for me.

I only use mine for camp work and so the chances of a broken handle are very slim and I really like a good solid grip, plus I prefer the more European look to my gear (though there are plenty of medieval axes that look tomahawk like)

I actually have just a more traditional little hatchet forged, more pics when I get home but this is what it looks like.
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But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Yavion
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

That's a great example! Very handy looking.
Is the eye tapered? I imagine that, worst case happens, if it is you could re-haft it by flipping it and making it into a tomahawk.
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by redhandfilms »

Tomahawk for me, for the same reasons you listed. Ability to replace the handle. Even if you don't have a belt knife, you could use the head to carve a new branch handle. It could even be removed and quickly fitted to a longer pole if needed, similar to a shepherd's axe.
Image
I took this for wood prep on my trip last week. Tomahawk is a modified CRKT Chogan. I redid the finish on the head and handle. I was using a small wood stove, so needed small wood. The only thing dry I could find was a downed 3 inch diameter tree limb. I almost didn't bring the saw, but thank god I did. I cut 4 inch long logs with the pack saw, then split as small I could with the tomahawk. Once they were too small to stand up on their own, I used the knife for batoning to make smaller pieces. Everything was soaked so this was the only way I could get dry firewood.

I'll say this, the wedge profile of a hatchet and tomahawk are typically different. Tomahawks tend to be flatter while hatchets are usually more triangular. Even if they are the same weight and length, this means the hatchet will be more effective at splitting. Not a bit deal if you're splitting small stuff into fingers like I was with my tomahawk, but if you want logs for a big fire, go for the hatchet. Basically, Tomahawks are better at cutting/chopping, hatchets are better at splitting.
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Elleth
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Elleth »

... at risk of being overly pedantic - what is it you mean when you say "tomahawk?"

Are you only referring to whether the handle is affixed by sliding down through the eye, or the head is slid onto the shaft and wedged in place? In that instance - unless one is making a habit of throwing one's axe, I don't think it makes much of a difference as in normal use the handle really doesn't stand much chance of breaking. Even granting the extreme case when it does - I don't get the argument that's it's significantly harder to shape 3-4" of haft to fit through the bottom vs 10-14" through the top.

If we're talking more particularly about the classical North American frontier-era tomahawk - thin blade and spiky/smoky bits and all - I think it's more weapon than woods tool, and outside of a historical curiosity don't personally see much use for it. Though that's somewhat colored by once upon a time trying to use one of the cheaper tomahawks made for rendezvous throwing games as a firewood hatchet and having the head constantly come loose, even when wedged.

Anyhow, if memory serves, "tomahawk" during our frontier period was a rather catch-all phrase, and most people using the word were usually talking about various kinds of (what we'd call) hatchets or belt axes. So I guess I'm on team hatchet.
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Yavion
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

Sorry, "tomahawk" is the only nomenclature I know for a hatchet that has the pole go through the eye from top to bottom vs an axe that is bottom to top. As I understand it, using these kinds of names for things is a modern proclivity. I'm sure regardless of attachment method, our ancestors called them all their native word for "that thing with a sideways blade on the end of a stick that's not a spear" xD

So really, this was an attempt at starting a debate about top to bottom or bottom to top. I personally fall in the top to bottom side simply because adding a wedge and all seems like a pain to do in the wild, while simply carving a pole with a thick end seems easier.
I could be mistaken, though. :)
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ForgeCorvus
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by ForgeCorvus »

I've heard the friction-fit axes called "Drop-eye" axes

I'm all for easy, carving two or three inches of wood to fit in a hole in a bit of metal is easier then carving 15 to 18 inches of wood to fit through a hole in a bit of metal. A notch and wedge isn't that hard to do even if you only have a knife.

I'd match my 17oz bearded camp axe against any other light chopper for firewood, poles and staves.

You want real simple though, try a billet axe or a socketed axe.... You do need a different shape of stick though

Image
Billet

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Socketed
Last edited by ForgeCorvus on Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Elleth
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Elleth »

Gotcha. :mrgreen:

I still think "doesn't matter much, provided the head is solidly attached."

Anyhow, here's what I've gathered up from around the house. Disclaimer: I use such things for splitting kindling, hammering tent pegs, and occasionally ending a chicken. I've only felled a handful of (small) trees in my life, and never fought (or HEMA/training-fought) with one.
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From left to right -

Gransfors-Bruks Small Forest Axe: Gets the most "real" use around the homestead. Sharp, nice handle. A bit long for usual hatchet tasks, but absolutely useable in that role. Not really MERF-MERS appropriate, but a very good tool.

Wild Fields Forge "Medium Carving Axe" on a long-ish haft: I love it! Wickedly sharp, and not overly heavy. My husband has done quite a bit of splitting campfire wood with it, and despite not being much into history-stuff didn't have much complaint for the old-timey haft.

Wild Fields Forge "Pocket Axe" mounted on a hatchet-length haft. Very good! The head shape is full of surprises: that extra length at the top is at the perfect angle for lopping a chicken head, and it's just wicked-sharp. The cutout under the "beard" makes it easy to get a good carving-grasp for feathering kindling. That said, I wasn't expecting the backwards-swept haft. I can't deny it works quite well, but I'm still not used to it and it feels kind of weird in my hand - rather more "slicy" than I'd expect from a hatchet if that makes sense. But gosh does it work well.

Curt Lyles 18th c. belt axe: this got a lot of use when I was doing more 18th c. hiking. It's a very good general-purpose hatchet, and quite light. The haft is a bit thin perhaps, but it's never broken. I do like the chonky square hammer poll, and it's fast in the hand if one was looking for a weapon.

Small 18th c. kindling hatchet: this was forged by one of the smiths at Virginia Frontier Culture Museum at their Irish Blacksmith Shop. It's a very handy little tool, very nice for having near the hearth or campfile for splitting or feathering a bit more kindling on the fly. It's obviously not something you'd want to fell a tree with, but it's so small it packs away very nicely.

"Rendezvous" tomahawk - one of the common Indian-made pieces that have been sold for decades now for axe-throwing games. It's been tossed into I don't know how many chunks of wood over the last twenty years by I don't know how many people, gone through several handles, and the blade is still in decent shape. BUT the head constantly comes loose no matter what you do, and the rounded poll means it's not great for hammering things. It's good for what it's for, but not a particularly good woods tool. Still better than the "Magua" one though.

"Magua" tomahawk - I only pulled this one out because it fits the conversation. My husband bought it at a blacksmith hammer-in he attended some years ago. I suspect from the handle it was made shortly after the Last of the Mohicans movie, as it looks a lot like Magua's weapon. As a tool, it's frankly terrible. Even if the head were still solid on the haft, the cylindrical grip makes it hard to get things lined up right, and the head is so thin it doesn't have much oomph.



Overall, "heading out into the wild for real" tool, discounting the modern one? Hrm... alone, the smaller Wild Fields Forge piece, albeit maybe with a different haft. As a group with larger tools spread around, maybe we'd want the larger Wild Fields Forge axe. (I've also thought the Wild Fields "Chekan" hatchet looked interesting, but Maksym the smith is Ukrainian, and due to the war his shop is sadly offline (I do hope he's okay!!).)

... I'd not cry if I was stuck with either of the 18th c. hatchets though. I do think the Lyles one has about the best utility-to-weight ratio, if that's a primary concern.


Edit - one more thing. I really do think focusing on "how easy is it to replace the handle in the field" is - even granting the assertion, which I don't think I do - hyper-optimizing on a fringe use case while compromising functionality you'll actually use. At least in my (admittedly very limited) experience, traditional round-socket, thin-bladed tomahawks tend to be rather unbalanced in the blow. So much of the mass is back towards the handle that when they strike, they want to sort of spin in your hand as the poll tries to keep going around the point where the blade meets the working material.

Thinner axe heads - especially with some significant mass behind the poll - don't do that nearly so much. Granted most of those really svelte designs are I think well past our "period" - but even so, a thinner socket tends to (I think) work better during the 99.99%+ time you're actually using rather than fixing the tool. And for that fringe case, a thinner/oblong socket means you're doing a lot of carving to fit a new haft no matter which way the wood goes through the socket, because wood in nature is round(ish).

That said, to each their own, I'm very much not an expert, etc etc.
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Yavion
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

ForgeCorvus wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:59 pm I'm all for easy, carving two or three inches of wood to fit in a hole in a bit of metal is easier then carving 15 to 18 inches of wood to fit through a hole in a bit of metal. A notch and wedge isn't that hard to do even if you only have a knife.
You're not wrong. I think that I kind of get hung up on "What happens if..." worst case scenarios when in reality, if you take good care of your gear, they're truly unlikely. My thought was that it was easier to find a branch of close-enough size that a little trimming and you'd be there where as cutting a notch and chipping a wedge for the other type of head may be more difficult. I've never done either, so that's where this conversation started in my head.

Elleth, that first Wild Fields axe is right up my ally. I favorited the shop on Etsy for the off chance they they're safe and can get back to their livelihood someday.
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Eofor
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Eofor »

Elleth, that Gransfors has me in palpitations!

They did a historical line which a friend has a few of and they are gorgeous, I only have a small hatchet.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Elleth
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Elleth »

Eofor - ha! It was a housewarming present from my uncle when we first moved to the farm. It's come in pretty handy!
I imagine their historical pieces would be awesome.

Yavion - the handle thing I know I've heard before, and it rather sounds to me like the kind of thing that is true in a particular instance, then gets repeated from place to place without the original context. It might even be right more often than not - I don't know! It doesn't seem to jive with my experience, but like you - I've never tried it. I could imagine a mostly circular socket working fairly well with a short length of sapling from the top. Hrmm.... maybe the idea is that wet wood contracts rather quickly as it dries, so it's harder to get a field repair that lasts more than a day or so?

... although I suppose even with a socketed hatchet, one could just keep hammering new wedges in until one got home.

Hrm. I know Ursus and Odigan have made small axes from scratch (am I remembering right that Numenorean piece was yours, O?) - I'm curious what they think.

oh, also, redhand - really nice work! Starting a fire with damp wood is such a pain. Well done!!
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Yavion
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Yavion »

The more I look at it, the more I realize that using the word "tomahawk" was a mistake. A tomahawk is only one example of an axe that has a head attached by sliding it up the shaft.
This is what I get for posting while on a break at work 😔
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I did find this Matt Easton video that I think articulates what I was attempting to convey.
https://youtu.be/O7s3G0o4XD8
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Elleth
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Re: Lemme AXE you a question

Post by Elleth »

hunh... his "wooden vs. metal wedges" observation reminds me of old fashioned home construction - and other woodwork, for that matter. Back in the day wooden pegs were used to fasten all manner of timber craftwork, in part because they expanded and contracted with the rest of the wood and so wouldn't come loose as a metal nail might. Then once nails - then screws - started to be made on an industrial scale, the cost savings was such that it just wasn't cost effective to do things the older - more long-lasting - way anymore.

It hadn't ever occured to me the same might be true for tool hafting wedges, but it makes sense I suppose.

The observation of one of the commenters on seeing metal wedges for the first time in the mid 20th c. and thinking they looked "cheap" is an especially interesting anecdote. Thank you for the link!
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