Middle Earth Ranger Forum

Here’s a question that’s been knocking around in my skull-cavity for a little while: do Orcs have free will? How free is their will, both pre-and post-Sauron? And if they have free will, do they have the ability to choose between good and evil deeds? Possibly for little to no reason, I worry for all living creatures of Arda, including the ones used by the forces of evil.

I think this ties in closely with the Professor’s own extremely complicated feelings about the orcs, and how they evolved somewhat over the years. He seemed to struggle with this very question, and I don’t really think he ever came up with an answer that totally satisfied him.

There was a recent discussion which touched on some of these theories.
It may answer some of your questions.

viewtopic.php?t=4843

Interesting. So in theory, an Orc could have some form of freedom of will. The main difficulty with them choosing to do anything redeeming seems to be that their entire lives are spent among a might-makes-right society, and that their nature is corrupted.

It's hard to say definitively and it seems that the professor himself never truly arrived at a conclusion but your assessment seems reasonable based on the facts we do have.

I suppose being 'nice' is seen as weakness in Orc culture, and weaklings are to be despised, victimised and obliterated.

It all comes down to Nature verses Nurture, are Orcs taught "at their mother's knee" to be amoral sadists, bullies and ultra-violent psychopaths or are they spawned that way due to the corrupting nature of their progenitor.

Mind you, psychopaths can do good things....... You've got to be a certain type of person to be able to cut into another human being even if its to remove a cancer or whatever

True. What I wonder is what it would take to change an Orcish heart. Obviously, some hearts are incapable of change, whether by the will of the being themselves or by the will of the one who holds them in thralldom, and a change of heart would not counteract or excuse a lifetime of wickedness. But what would an Orc on a redemptive path look like, I wonder?

A good goblin? I guess there might be one if you look really hard. But in the end, the only good goblins are the ones who never come out of their holes.

Thalion of Bree wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:32 pm True. What I wonder is what it would take to change an Orcish heart. Obviously, some hearts are incapable of change, whether by the will of the being themselves or by the will of the one who holds them in thralldom, and a change of heart would not counteract or excuse a lifetime of wickedness. But what would an Orc on a redemptive path look like, I wonder?

I once toyed with a little bit of fanfic about that. The idea was an encounter between a slightly less cruel than normal orc child and Ulmo at the last uncorrupted spring in the Ephel Duath.

Togon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:07 am A good goblin? I guess there might be one if you look really hard. But in the end, the only good goblins are the ones who never come out of their holes.

I too toyed with fanfic along these lines, while I was in high-school I wrote some light hearted short story's about Iodo growing up in the Iron Hills and getting up to no good, some of those story's featured local goblins, who while I wouldn't describe them as "good" they were not specifically "evil", and if I remember correctly Iodo's great grand farther described them as "just a part of the world"

I can't remember where those story's went though, long lost to old drive backups and boxes of paperwork in the roof probably? but if I ever turn any up they'll reach the bards stage for sure