Okay, that's not a very descriptive title for what I'm aiming at, but here goes. I know in the "Phantom Menace," Obi Wan had a learner's knot (I think it was called) as he was training to be a jedi. It consisted of a long braid of hair. I've read other works of fiction/fantasy where one who was training, or one who was a warrior had a certain hair style.
So, here's the question: Is there anything in writing about a certain hair style for a warrior or a trainer?
Hair in history
Hair in history
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
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Mirimaran
- Thangailhir
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Re: Hair in history
I hope there is something about balding LOL
But seriously, if you mean in LOTR and etc, I don't think so, but I will look in the books that I have laying around.
Ken
But seriously, if you mean in LOTR and etc, I don't think so, but I will look in the books that I have laying around.
Ken
"Well, what are you waiting for? I am an old man, and have no time for your falter! Come at me, if you will, for I do not sing songs of dastards!"
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Peter Remling
- Athel Dunedain
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Re: Hair in history
I never read anything specific but I did happen to notice a difference in some of the pics and the teracota warrior statues so your question prompted me to check. Here's the first thing I saw:
http://www.online-shopping-china.com/terra_cotta13.asp
I'll check a few others out and post back here if I find anything else.
http://www.online-shopping-china.com/terra_cotta13.asp
I'll check a few others out and post back here if I find anything else.
Re: Hair in history
Yes Ken, Balding comes from your troops constantly running on the edge of disobeying orders. You didn't read that? 
I am looking for actual historical accounts. Thanks Pete. I've seen pics of Japanese and Chinese warriors before but never really paid attention to their "style" until now. After I wrote the initial post, they came to mind. So you pretty much answered that one for me. But any other references would be great to see or read about too.
I am looking for actual historical accounts. Thanks Pete. I've seen pics of Japanese and Chinese warriors before but never really paid attention to their "style" until now. After I wrote the initial post, they came to mind. So you pretty much answered that one for me. But any other references would be great to see or read about too.
Ichthean Forge (pronounced Ick thee an). Maker of knives, and primitive camping gear.
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Sam
- Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
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Re: Hair in history
I'm not sure about particular examples personally, but the following book has tons of information on the cultural use and importance of hair:
Encyclopedia of hair: a cultural history By Victoria Sherrow
I read a bit of it on google books, and it looks pretty informative. Maybe you have it in a library?
Encyclopedia of hair: a cultural history By Victoria Sherrow
I read a bit of it on google books, and it looks pretty informative. Maybe you have it in a library?
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kaelln
Re: Hair in history
From Wikipedia:
In ancient Greece, long hair was a symbol of wealth and power, while a shaven head was appropriate for a slave. The ancient Greeks had several heroes who wore their hair long, including Zeus, Achilles, Hector, and Poseidon. Both Greek and Trojan soldiers are said to have worn their hair long in battle. Such warriors considered it a sign of aristocracy and are said to have combed it openly in order to show off. Also, in order to keep enemies from getting a hold of it in battle, they were known to cut the front short, but leave it long in the back, where it was more out of reach. A widely held alternative interpretation of the conventional belief that they cut it short in the front in order to keep their enemies from getting a hold of it during battle is that, they did not in fact cut it in the front, but rather tied it back in a style known as a pony tail in order to keep it out of their enemies' reach. The pony tail method allowed warriors, who often traveled to battle with a minimal amount of equipment in order to avoid excessively heavy loads over long marches, to keep their hair manageable with a small piece of string to hold their pony tail in place and a knife to cut the back to length with one simple slice. Around the sixth century, however, the Greek men shifted to shorter hairstyles, with the exception of the Spartans.
^ Irwin, M. Eleanor (Oct 1990), "Odysseus' "Hyacinthine Hair" in 'Odyssey' 6.231", Phoenix 44 (3): 205–218, ISSN 0031-8299
In the European middle ages, shorter hair often signified servitude and peasantry, while long hair was often attributed to freemen, such as the Germanic Goths and Merovingians.
Bartlett, Robert (1994), "Symbolic Meanings of Hair in the Middle Ages", Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Sixth series 4: 43–60, ISSN 0080-4401
Also, in my long and varied reading career, I have come across the information before that in Pagan Europe, long hair was a sign of the aristocratic and warrior classes, and that the further down the cultural scale you were, the shorter your hair. Extremely short hair was almost always a sign of slavery. I can't back that up with references right now though; I'd have to search through my book collection, and that could take hours. But longer hair was common among the upper classes up to the 1700's, witness George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Even now, in some European countries such as England, some officials such as judges and barristers don long hair wigs as a sign of their rank and authority.
Also, in the movie Shanghai Knights, Jackie Chan is a Chinese royal guard in the 1800's. The royal guards have extremely long braided ponytails, and to have it cut off is a mark of shame. That is just a movie, but there may be some valid research behind that particular part. Or not.
In ancient Greece, long hair was a symbol of wealth and power, while a shaven head was appropriate for a slave. The ancient Greeks had several heroes who wore their hair long, including Zeus, Achilles, Hector, and Poseidon. Both Greek and Trojan soldiers are said to have worn their hair long in battle. Such warriors considered it a sign of aristocracy and are said to have combed it openly in order to show off. Also, in order to keep enemies from getting a hold of it in battle, they were known to cut the front short, but leave it long in the back, where it was more out of reach. A widely held alternative interpretation of the conventional belief that they cut it short in the front in order to keep their enemies from getting a hold of it during battle is that, they did not in fact cut it in the front, but rather tied it back in a style known as a pony tail in order to keep it out of their enemies' reach. The pony tail method allowed warriors, who often traveled to battle with a minimal amount of equipment in order to avoid excessively heavy loads over long marches, to keep their hair manageable with a small piece of string to hold their pony tail in place and a knife to cut the back to length with one simple slice. Around the sixth century, however, the Greek men shifted to shorter hairstyles, with the exception of the Spartans.
^ Irwin, M. Eleanor (Oct 1990), "Odysseus' "Hyacinthine Hair" in 'Odyssey' 6.231", Phoenix 44 (3): 205–218, ISSN 0031-8299
In the European middle ages, shorter hair often signified servitude and peasantry, while long hair was often attributed to freemen, such as the Germanic Goths and Merovingians.
Bartlett, Robert (1994), "Symbolic Meanings of Hair in the Middle Ages", Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Sixth series 4: 43–60, ISSN 0080-4401
Also, in my long and varied reading career, I have come across the information before that in Pagan Europe, long hair was a sign of the aristocratic and warrior classes, and that the further down the cultural scale you were, the shorter your hair. Extremely short hair was almost always a sign of slavery. I can't back that up with references right now though; I'd have to search through my book collection, and that could take hours. But longer hair was common among the upper classes up to the 1700's, witness George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Even now, in some European countries such as England, some officials such as judges and barristers don long hair wigs as a sign of their rank and authority.
Also, in the movie Shanghai Knights, Jackie Chan is a Chinese royal guard in the 1800's. The royal guards have extremely long braided ponytails, and to have it cut off is a mark of shame. That is just a movie, but there may be some valid research behind that particular part. Or not.
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Tauron
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Re: Hair in history
Some reference to hairstyles of the Pagan Germanic tribes of Northern Europe... (cut & pasted, sorry didn't bother to edit)
It seems that men's hairstyles, at least amongst the warriors, varied from tribe to tribe. Tacitus tells us that warriors of the Chatti, a western tribe, allowed their hair and beard to grow until they killed an enemy. The Swabians tied their hair up in a knot at the side of the head, a hairstyle well attested from both Roman sculptures and archaeology. Tacitus tells us that the style was the mark of the freeman. He observed that young men who were not Swabian were also copying the style. This variety of hairstyles is also shown on many Roman sculptures showing Germanic tribesmen. Sidonius, writing in the fifth century, confirms that the Swabian style was still in use by then, and suggests it had spread to other classes as well as other tribes (it is interesting to note that even in Anglo-Saxon England closely cropped hair was the sign of a slave). Sidonius also adds to Tacitus' observations:
'Here in Bordeaux we see the blue-eyed Saxon afraid of the land, accustomed as he is to the sea; along the extreme edges of his pate the razor, refusing to restrain its bite, pushes back the frontier of his hair and, with the growth thus clipped to the skin, his head is reduced and his face enlarged.'
Sidonius also describes Frankish warriors:
'... on the crown of whose red pates lies the hair that has been drawn towards the front, whilst the neck, exposed by the loss of its covering, shows bright. Their eyes are faint and pale, with a glimmer of greyish blue. Their faces are shaven all round, and instead of beards they have thin moustaches which they run through with a comb. Close fitting garments confine the tall limbs of the men, they are drawn up high so as to expose the knees, and a broad belt supports their narrow middle.'
Sidonius also writes of Frankish servants with 'oily top knots', perhaps similar to the Swabian knot. Evidence of early Anglo-Saxon hairstyles being extremely rare, Sidonius' and Tacitus' observations are interesting. Also of interest is the similarity of Sidonius' description of the Frankish warrior's hairstyle with the 'Norman' styles shown on the Bayeux Tapestry some six centuries later!
The many combs found in Anglo-Saxon contexts (mainly settlements, not burials) suggest that care of the hair was important, and the many tweezers, shears, etc. found in burials show that personal grooming was also valued. Since most of the settlers were intending to devote themselves to agriculture and colonisation, it is probable that the more extravagant hairstyles of their kinsmen were left behind, except, perhaps, by some of the warriors. The uncropped wildness of the Chatti and the knots of the Swabians were after all, as Tacitus tells us, largely designed to frighten the enemy. Probably the Anglo-Saxons cut their hair fairly short, as the Franks did; by the sixth century long hair seems to have been a style confined to the Merovingian kings in Frankia. Our only direct evidence for the early Anglo-Saxons comes from highly stylised faces and figures on jewellery. Luxuriant moustaches are suggested on some faces, occasionally with a beard, but most are clean shaven. Hair is occasionally shoulder length, but is usually collar length or shorter (hardly the hairy barbarians many Victorian scholars would have us believe!)
Women's hair was worn long (but not necessarily un cut and unstyled), sometimes loose but often plaited. Some representations show the hair drawn back from the face, presumably into a plait or pony-tail. It is uncertain whether a pony tail would be tied back with some kind of fastening, or whether it would be knotted as was done in Scandinavia. Some continental sculptures show quite elegant coiffures and ringlets on Germanic women, and a pair of pony-tails fastened behind each ear are also often represented.
Phew (takes a breath)...
In Summary; hairstyles of the various cultures varied from tribe to tribe, but were genally long in the warrior-classes, short hair signifying slavery, until at last things settled down a little in the early medieval period and hairstyles became more practical.
Anglo-saxons being the people who settled in Britain after the Romans left, and later whom the Nomans conquored.
Eric, were you thinking of a debate regarding the possibility a common Dunedain hairstyle?
It seems that men's hairstyles, at least amongst the warriors, varied from tribe to tribe. Tacitus tells us that warriors of the Chatti, a western tribe, allowed their hair and beard to grow until they killed an enemy. The Swabians tied their hair up in a knot at the side of the head, a hairstyle well attested from both Roman sculptures and archaeology. Tacitus tells us that the style was the mark of the freeman. He observed that young men who were not Swabian were also copying the style. This variety of hairstyles is also shown on many Roman sculptures showing Germanic tribesmen. Sidonius, writing in the fifth century, confirms that the Swabian style was still in use by then, and suggests it had spread to other classes as well as other tribes (it is interesting to note that even in Anglo-Saxon England closely cropped hair was the sign of a slave). Sidonius also adds to Tacitus' observations:
'Here in Bordeaux we see the blue-eyed Saxon afraid of the land, accustomed as he is to the sea; along the extreme edges of his pate the razor, refusing to restrain its bite, pushes back the frontier of his hair and, with the growth thus clipped to the skin, his head is reduced and his face enlarged.'
Sidonius also describes Frankish warriors:
'... on the crown of whose red pates lies the hair that has been drawn towards the front, whilst the neck, exposed by the loss of its covering, shows bright. Their eyes are faint and pale, with a glimmer of greyish blue. Their faces are shaven all round, and instead of beards they have thin moustaches which they run through with a comb. Close fitting garments confine the tall limbs of the men, they are drawn up high so as to expose the knees, and a broad belt supports their narrow middle.'
Sidonius also writes of Frankish servants with 'oily top knots', perhaps similar to the Swabian knot. Evidence of early Anglo-Saxon hairstyles being extremely rare, Sidonius' and Tacitus' observations are interesting. Also of interest is the similarity of Sidonius' description of the Frankish warrior's hairstyle with the 'Norman' styles shown on the Bayeux Tapestry some six centuries later!
The many combs found in Anglo-Saxon contexts (mainly settlements, not burials) suggest that care of the hair was important, and the many tweezers, shears, etc. found in burials show that personal grooming was also valued. Since most of the settlers were intending to devote themselves to agriculture and colonisation, it is probable that the more extravagant hairstyles of their kinsmen were left behind, except, perhaps, by some of the warriors. The uncropped wildness of the Chatti and the knots of the Swabians were after all, as Tacitus tells us, largely designed to frighten the enemy. Probably the Anglo-Saxons cut their hair fairly short, as the Franks did; by the sixth century long hair seems to have been a style confined to the Merovingian kings in Frankia. Our only direct evidence for the early Anglo-Saxons comes from highly stylised faces and figures on jewellery. Luxuriant moustaches are suggested on some faces, occasionally with a beard, but most are clean shaven. Hair is occasionally shoulder length, but is usually collar length or shorter (hardly the hairy barbarians many Victorian scholars would have us believe!)
Women's hair was worn long (but not necessarily un cut and unstyled), sometimes loose but often plaited. Some representations show the hair drawn back from the face, presumably into a plait or pony-tail. It is uncertain whether a pony tail would be tied back with some kind of fastening, or whether it would be knotted as was done in Scandinavia. Some continental sculptures show quite elegant coiffures and ringlets on Germanic women, and a pair of pony-tails fastened behind each ear are also often represented.
Phew (takes a breath)...
In Summary; hairstyles of the various cultures varied from tribe to tribe, but were genally long in the warrior-classes, short hair signifying slavery, until at last things settled down a little in the early medieval period and hairstyles became more practical.
Anglo-saxons being the people who settled in Britain after the Romans left, and later whom the Nomans conquored.
Eric, were you thinking of a debate regarding the possibility a common Dunedain hairstyle?
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R.D.Metcalf
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Re: Hair in history
Richard the Lionheart wrote a punishment to the effect that the offender would have "his hair shorn as a prizefighter". It could be inferred that medieval brawlers shaved their heads.
I've also read that the Anglo-Saxon term Wulf heofod / Wolf head used for outlaws referred to an unkempt ferocious appearance. So it would seem early medieval ruffians would have had long hair and beards while later medieval thugs would've shaved their heads.
I've lately started growing my hair as I missed my "bushwacker" curls around here during the civil war when the Yankees invaded America my ancestor Dane Metcalf and his brothers took an oath not to cut their hair because an outfit in Tennessee paid scalp bounties for rebel scalps.....Sometimes these "rebels" were women children and the elderly and even a few decent returning union soldiers, including our relatives ( we are an independent minded lot) caught unawares and dishonorably slain.
I've also read that the Anglo-Saxon term Wulf heofod / Wolf head used for outlaws referred to an unkempt ferocious appearance. So it would seem early medieval ruffians would have had long hair and beards while later medieval thugs would've shaved their heads.
I've lately started growing my hair as I missed my "bushwacker" curls around here during the civil war when the Yankees invaded America my ancestor Dane Metcalf and his brothers took an oath not to cut their hair because an outfit in Tennessee paid scalp bounties for rebel scalps.....Sometimes these "rebels" were women children and the elderly and even a few decent returning union soldiers, including our relatives ( we are an independent minded lot) caught unawares and dishonorably slain.
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
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Jonathan B.
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Re: Hair in history
Wolf's Head comes from the fact that they had a bounty on their head as did Wolves and could be killed on sight.
According to Thomas Tayler's Law Dictionary (printed in 1856), the phrase "Wolf's Head" pertains to an outlaw, meaning a person who might be killed with impugnity, like a wolf. It is said that the phrase was originally found in the phrase "to cry wolf's head." But I have no idea where that phrase came from.
According to Thomas Tayler's Law Dictionary (printed in 1856), the phrase "Wolf's Head" pertains to an outlaw, meaning a person who might be killed with impugnity, like a wolf. It is said that the phrase was originally found in the phrase "to cry wolf's head." But I have no idea where that phrase came from.
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R.D.Metcalf
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Re: Hair in history
Actually in Norse and Anglo-Saxon society an outlaw could be killed on sight anyway, I've never read of a bounty being paid because generally it was the kin of the wronged party doing the killing. If money were the motivator he would be worth more as a slave or they would've settled for wergild....If he or his kin could have afforded it. I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong, because I've never read of "bounty hunters" in this period so I'm not certain.....But then again where ever there is relatively easy money to be made someone will take the job 
As to wolf bounties I'm still not certain but I would adventure that it depends on the period as the literary evidence points to "wolves howling under ash branches" as a good omen for a warrior in 'Reginsmal'
The wolf was both damned and praised, and like myself, there were good reasons for both
As to wolf bounties I'm still not certain but I would adventure that it depends on the period as the literary evidence points to "wolves howling under ash branches" as a good omen for a warrior in 'Reginsmal'
The wolf was both damned and praised, and like myself, there were good reasons for both
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
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Jonathan B.
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Re: Hair in history
I may well be wrong but it's what I've always been told. I grew up more on Robyn Hode than Lord of the Rings and He's routinely calld a Wolf's Head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dGizX3Ftpo
Watch from about 03:30 until about 04:10 it's thin proof but Mike Loades is generally quite accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dGizX3Ftpo
Watch from about 03:30 until about 04:10 it's thin proof but Mike Loades is generally quite accurate.
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R.D.Metcalf
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Re: Hair in history
I dont doubt your word at all, sir, nor your evidence but I think we are talking of two different points in history. Under Anglo-Danish laws established under Cnut the bounty system did not exist as we know it unless clans contracted private killers for hire, instead communities were responsible to the king to turn over the wrong doer, dead or alive or pay a heavy fine.
By, Robyns ye olde tyme in ye olde forrest (joke) the Anglo-Saxon law had given way to the Normans law codes, names like wulf heofod would've stayed in place at the native level but like Robin Hoods story proves the term could mean different things in this period. While Robyn was hero to post conquest English folk. Pre conquest his status would've been very different. His outlawry wasnt recognized by many of his Saxon and Angle contemporaries, Just as Herewards outlawry only solidified his status as a champion of Anglelond. Norman outlawry carried no weight with freeborn Angles and saxons outside of the obvious fear of death and torture.
By, Robyns ye olde tyme in ye olde forrest (joke) the Anglo-Saxon law had given way to the Normans law codes, names like wulf heofod would've stayed in place at the native level but like Robin Hoods story proves the term could mean different things in this period. While Robyn was hero to post conquest English folk. Pre conquest his status would've been very different. His outlawry wasnt recognized by many of his Saxon and Angle contemporaries, Just as Herewards outlawry only solidified his status as a champion of Anglelond. Norman outlawry carried no weight with freeborn Angles and saxons outside of the obvious fear of death and torture.
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
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Jonathan B.
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Re: Hair in history
That does appear to be what is happening. I will gladly concede that it may have had a very different meaning than the one I'm familiar with at an earlier time.
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R.D.Metcalf
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Re: Hair in history
Jonathan, I truely appreciate your kind demeanor. I would gladly buy you a pint if I lived closer. Many times I've stepped into a historical discussion to get virtually bludgeoned when my intention was not to argue but to raise a point. You are a man of quality, sir, and its an honor to meet you. I look forward to further discourse as i have learned a few things from this discussion about a later period that was somewhat dark to me in certain areas.
With great respect,
RD
With great respect,
RD
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
My Sword Is my Troth.
~Iron Wolf Forge~
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Jonathan B.
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Re: Hair in history
RD, I greatly appreciate your kind words. I've had a few of the same type of experiences with people on line, It's a mindset I've never understood as I welcome new information and to have my assumptions challenged. I have learned a few things in this conversation as well and for that I thank you very much.I've read some of your posts on other topics and eagerly look forward to learning from your knowledge and experience.